Transcript
Leading us is Doctor Jeff Conan.
Also with the mock defendant in this case is Alexander Huron.
And a couple of housekeeping items.
1st and foremost, it's a general disclaimer.
This is a mock trial we're going we're merging various bits of information, but any reference to the setting or the circumstances or questions or involve are are entirely hypothetical, including any other information provided during the webinar.
We definitely encourage you to understand that this is for informational purposes only as educational experience as well.
Also, presenters have and we will provide online or in the on demand course a full any conflicts of interest that they have as part of the presentation today.
Lastly, conflicts of interest, it's important to note that we that we are required, and our presenters do provide any disclose any other conflicts of interest.
We will also we will provide that during they may provide that here.
Definitely provide that during the on land on demand access.
So with that being said, Doctor Conan and Alexander.
Good morning.
How are you all doing today?
Doing great.
Good morning, Ray, and everyone.
Great.
Great.
And how have you here?
Great.
So let's go.
Great.
Sorry.
Excellent.
So before we get started, I wanna give a I wanna do a quick introduction for both faculty.
Here today and thank them for their time and effort and and preparing for this fantastic session.
We're gonna have for so first off, Doctor.
Jeff Koonan, I could go on and on as a long list of accolades and the things that he's done impact the the athletic training profession.
His full bio is on the web page, but in in short for those of you who don't have in front of you.
So doctor Conan his clinical professor at Florida International University where he leads the doctor of athletic training program and oversees a global initiative for cannabinoid.
And then a boy Benoit Research And Education, certified athletic trainer licensed physical therapist.
I think Conner has a rich history of sports medicine, which is included serving at the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games.
And as also the head off like trainer for the US parallel Paralympic wheelchair team in 2010.
He's tremendous in a number of different areas in well respected adviser in health care, in various aspects of sports medicine, the cannabis industry holding significant positions such as chair of the NATA's cannabis task force, and a member of various cannabis and medical associations.
There were 25 textbooks to his name, Doctor Kona's prolific author and editor in the realms of sports medicine, athlete training.
As well as contribute to imported documents such as various NDTA physician statements.
He's also globally recognized having spoken conferences worldwide, and it secured over $13,000,000 in grants for sports medicine initiatives as founding partner of the Rybert Koning Group.
Doctor Koning offers exported bikes in sport safety and education and through a PhD 420 Incorporated, he focuses on cannabis, education, and research.
Among those things, he was in 2000 and then 2020, he was inducted to the NATA Hall of Fame.
He's been a tremendous contributor to the profession.
And also passed academics academic appointments at Renown University.
So welcome, Doctor Conan.
Thank you, Randy.
Appreciate it.
Oh, thank you.
Also, next is Alexander Huron, who is gonna take she has taken the unique role of the mock defendant in this case.
So a little bit about Alexandra.
She's athletic trainer background.
She's an alumnus of University of the Chronic War.
In chronic word in Texas, and she where she graduated in 2016 with a bachelor of science in athletic training.
Her various and tenure in different positions include began at Livingston ISD as a cohead athletic trainer and Sports Medicine instructor.
And from there, she's also worked at Poth ISD, where she was also an athletic trainer instructor.
And with that, She's also worked a number of different settings in professional football, other athletics as well.
So very strong history in in especially in this topic working with middle school and high school athletes recently, or she has just transitioned to is employed with AT solutions where she is working with Mike they're working with Microsoft and where she is a health and wellness specialist.
In Texas.
So welcome, Alexandra.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
Great.
So with that being said, I'm gonna turn this over to doctor Conan where he is gonna give you an overview of what's gonna take place and just ready to strap in everybody.
It's gonna be exciting.
Next session with this mock debate.
So I'm gonna turn off from here.
Thank you very much, Doctor.
Castle, and thank you all for joining us today.
It's not just to give me a little bit of an intro before we roll right into the mock debt position.
The idea behind this is really that though athletic trainers may find themselves on trial, the majority of cases where athletic trainers our plaintiff's law defendants actually settle and don't go to trial, but they may and they very likely may involve finding yourself in a deposition.
And so what we did here was we put together this mock case, which you all have seen, I understand, And the only real aspect of this set will integrate it to the case is Alexandra's resume, which I have a copy of here and I'm gonna use that because rather than make up a fake resume, she knows her life and her career and her resume better.
And we wanted to make this as as realest possible in the sense that if you ever find yourself in a position where you may be in a deposition, you'll understand more so the type of questions that are asked.
Now this is brief.
I was telling Alexandria and Doctor Castle just prior to coming on the air that the the most recent deposition I was involved in was 6 a half hours long.
Virtually like this.
Now we're gonna keep this to about 45 minutes and just try to cover some of the many key points throughout the process.
And so, hopefully, for those of you that are watching, have never been involved in a deposition.
You probably heard of them.
You get an understanding of what they're like, the types of questions that are asked.
And then what we're done, we'll spend a little bit of time reviewing some of the highlights and then opening up to questions for all of you, for any comments you have, any suggestions you have, and this is designed to be non threatened.
So I I wanna thank Alexandria, 1st of all, for volunteering to do this.
Like, anything else we do, you can You can read about something.
You can write about it, but when you actually do it, you tend to to learn the most from it.
So I hope this will be extremely valuable for you as well.
And I'd like to ask you, Alexandria, if you have any comments you'd like to make before we get started.
Just that I'm really excited to be in this position along with other cool athletic training experiences I've had in my career, such as the wins and traveling to the NADA, conventions every year.
I've been wanting to work a little bit higher, a little bit harder to get myself more involved in our community, and I definitely see this as an opportunity to do so.
And it provides a little bit of experience for me because no one that a chair wants to be in any type of lawsuit, but sometimes it happens.
Just dependent on interactions.
It depends on outside interactions or outside I guess, views of, you know, view the behavior and the experience between you and your athlete and Anything can happen at any time, whether we are paying attention, and we're on our ps and queues, or whether it's a lax day, and we've had a long day, and we're just kind of moving through the motions.
And it's important to always kind of keep an open mind to that, I guess, possibility.
But, hopefully, this gives me a little bit of experience on if I'm ever in that situation, then I will kind of, you know, know how to conduct my help in.
I'll know it to say, but, you know, I'm never gonna find myself there.
So, yeah, let's go for it.
Excellent.
And so as they say, if you been involved with one deposition.
You've been involved in one deposition.
And you can continuously learn no matter how many times you're involved, they're different always, and there's always some surprising moments.
The only other disclaimer that I will add is Doctor.
Cassel mentioned that I'm a founder and partner in the Raybrook Plumbing Group.
For this session today, I am playing the role of an attorney.
I am not an attorney.
I am playing the role of attorney for this webinar.
And so as much as you're having fun playing to defend it, I'm gonna have some some fun.
By the attorney.
But I wanna process that by saying this.
In an expert role when you are hired, in a case like this, you oftentimes will assist the attorneys in developing the questions for their depositions.
It really all depends on when you're hired in a case.
Sometimes they may have to post all of the witnesses.
But in this particular case here, we're gonna work under the assumption that The expert was hired early and helped feed some of these relevant questions to the attorneys that will depose you.
Shall we start?
Let's get started.
Let's do it.
Hello, miss Huron.
My name is Jeff Conan.
I am an attorney, and I am representing Jordan B.
And do you understand that you are here today for the deposition in the Jordan B case?
Yes.
I understand so.
And did I pronounce your name correct?
Is it Huron?
Correct.
And you understand also that you are under oath?
Correct.
If at any time, during my questioning, you need a break.
Please do feel free to tell me.
And if any point in time I ask question that you don't understand.
Please also let me know, and I will try to reword the question in a way that you may be able to understand it better.
I'd like to start simply by asking you some basic questions.
First, can you please state for the record your full name?
Alexandra Huron.
Do you go by Alexandra?
Yes.
Okay.
Great.
Thank you.
Can you please let us know your date of birth and how old you are today?
My birthday is November 11th 1992, and I'm thirty one years old.
And where were you born?
In Castle Hills, which is a subsidy in San Antonio, Texas.
And where do you currently live now?
I live in San Antonio, Texas.
Thank you.
I'd like to start by I have here a copy of your resume.
Is that correct?
This is your resume that you have provided?
Yes, sir.
And I'd like to ask you some questions about what you have listed here on your resume.
It says that that you are an athletic trainer?
Yes.
And How long have you been an athletic trainer for?
I was certified in October 2016.
And could you explain for me exactly what an athletic trainer is?
Yes.
An athletic trainer is an allied health care professional.
We specialize in the prevention and management of sports medicine injuries, along with psychological and mental health counseling, as well as general health conditions and emergent situations.
Thank you.
Now I see on your resume, you list following your name both a t c and l a t.
Can you please explain the difference between these 2?
Yes.
LAT is a licensed athletic trainer that gives me the ability to work as an athletic trainer in the state of Texas.
It's a state licensure, and ATC is a national credential.
Meaning that I may practice any athletic training skills in any state around the United States that allows for this credential to be utilized soon.
So is it fair to say that the ATC credential brings you greater responsibility than the LAT credential?
That really is depending upon the state that you're practicing in.
For example, in the state of Texas, I cannot practice without a state licensure.
But if I was to move to California, I would only need my national Ventral ATC, as I believe so.
But I've never lived more travel to the state of California.
Just FYI.
And so you're currently practiced in the state of Texas.
Correct?
Yes.
And I have only practiced in the state of Texas.
Thank you.
In looking at your resume, in the very top, you list a You you provide us a paragraph that's titled summary.
And in the summary, you list many areas of how you define what's called core competencies.
Would you say that these core competencies are areas of expertise that you possess?
Yes.
And among core competencies of expertise that you possess is ethical decision making one of those core competencies?
Yes.
Is there any reason why you did not list that in this paragraph then?
Not specifically any reason, most of the core competencies listed on my resume are the ones that are probably more superficial and are more you you can see them every day and you work on those every day.
We do work on ethical competencies every day, but most of the time, athletic trainers in my experience are not put in situations where we must make a lot of ethical decisions.
Most of the decisions we make or more so for sudden injuries, different types of treatments to give.
And most of the time, in my experience, those have been very superficial.
Such as ankle sprains, shoulder injuries.
Most of the ethical competencies, I would say, come into play when there's a state of concussion that the athlete is dealing with, and I have not had to deal with many of those this year.
So if I understand you correctly, ethical decision making is not as important as these other core competencies that you listed on your resume?
It's just as important, but for the I guess, obtaining the job, listing those specific skills is probably more so relevant and we'll be able to really explain more of the day to day regular skills that you'll be giving or I guess, handling day to day.
Not many not many athletic directors or coaches ask you in an interview.
What would happen if it came to a sexual harassment case, and most of those things are gone and talked about and you're trained with those things in sorry.
Excuse me again, Natalie.
You're trained in human resources with those types of situations, and they're not really gonna ask you those types of things in an interview.
They're more so gonna ask you, how do you handle a athlete with a concussion going on?
How do you handle a parent trying to get their athlete back on the core after an ankle sprain of, you know, this many days or weeks.
And those are the types of interview questions that I received.
And so Most of my skills that I listed are pertinent to the more so obvious interview questions that I receive whenever I am getting a new job.
Do you think it's possible, Alexandria, that at the conclusion of this deposition, you might adjust your summary paragraph to add ethical decision making?
Definitely so.
So you think it's important enough now to list?
Yes.
Also, Can you talk to us about any expertise you possess in sexual misconduct training?
Can you repeat that question?
Yes.
Do you possess expertise in sexual misconduct training relative to being an athletic trainer?
Yes.
Can you explain, please?
So whenever we are trained during human resources training, we're given many different scenarios in which sexual harassment can come about onto employees, whether it's to be higher up, a employee of the same level, such as maybe a secondary athletic trainer, and as well as student athletes.
Students alike, and also parents.
I would say most of my expertise comes from those trainings because every school in organization has their own sexual harassment course that they must teach all of their employees.
And in in accordance with my LAT and ATC credentials, we do have to complete continuing education units, CEUs, and sexual harassment or one of many courses offered, and so I've done a couple of those as well.
So it's fair to say that you possess a core competency of expertise in sexual harassment or sexual misconduct?
Yes.
Is there any reason then why you do not list this in your summary paragraph?
As possessing such core competence?
The specific reason I would give would just be that it's part of the daily or the weekly it's part of, like, the daily and weekly thing that I I wouldn't really think that I'm exposed to because I'm not I'm not putting myself in a position to put that down on my resume.
So I I don't believe I'm going to be facing that type of situation, and it's not a it's not a situation I'll put myself in.
So I'm not thinking forward to putting that on my resume because it's something that I've had so much experience in as, you know, opposed to, like, how many concussions I've had to deal with or how many ACL tears I've had to deal with or, you know, those types of more relevant injuries that are more prevalent in in my experience.
So sexual misconduct is not relevant?
It is relevant, but I have not had much experience with it.
And I have not conducted myself in the manner that way.
So I don't believe that it knew to be on my resume.
At the forefront in, like, a skill set to let my next interview or know that.
You know?
This is why I would like my job.
Is it fair to say that at the conclusion of this deposition, You may also now add sexual misconduct training or expertise as one of your core competencies in the summary paragraph.
Yes.
That would be a good bullet point to have down.
So that other interviewers in my future employers know that I am aware and I'm an expert in this type of core competency.
So you are you would consider yourself as an expert in sexual misconduct then.
Due to the the human resources training and the CEO training that I have had, I would say I'm not an expert, but I have moderate knowledge on it.
So not completely an expert, but have a good amount of knowledge to know what's right and what's wrong and what to do in that situation if it occurs.
Okay.
And just for the record so we can Be sure that we've clarified your stance on this.
Are you an expert in sexual misconduct?
Or do you have moderate knowledge in that space?
I'd say moderate knowledge in that space because I have never had this type of situation occur in my close to 10 years of experience.
This is my first time experiencing any type of misconduct or sexual harassment allegation.
And so then if it's not a core competency of excellence, would you not listen on your summary, or would you then still listen on your summary when you were to revise your resume the next time?
I would say based on this experience, yes, I would now.
Okay.
Thank you.
Let's take a look at the education that you list here.
And I'd also like to ask you, you've alluded on a number of occasions now, your resume being reviewed by a potential employer.
Can you explain to me in your opinion the purpose of your resume?
Yes.
The purpose the purpose of the resume is to give the future employer and the interviews and idea of all of the experience I have in my about 8 years, 9 years experience.
What I'm strong in, what I'm weak in, my different settings that I've worked in because Of course, every employer wants to employ the best person for the job in the lineup.
So is it fair to say if anything is not on this resume, then it's not part of your experience.
That the only experience you have is what I see here on this one page of your resume?
Not completely.
I do have student athletic trainer experience.
But once you acquire so many years, you kind of put the student trainer experience on the back burner.
So you don't listen on your resume because it's not seen as immediately in important during the job.
And you mentioned a moment ago that your resume is a display of your strengths and your weaknesses.
And I'm going to in a moment talk about what you list as key skills, which I assume are strengths.
But I don't see anything on here that alludes to the term weakness.
So, again, because it's not listed here, do you have no weaknesses?
Or if that's not accurate, can you tell me what weaknesses you do have?
I would say I have a few weaknesses, but they I get to experience many of them.
Everyday, I'm in a position of learning, and I learn what I'm very good at and what I'm floor at, and I would say that I'm not without weakness just as happy.
Every athletic trainer is not without is not without weakness or not without a a nugget of knowledge in their toolbox.
And would you say that ethical decision making is a strength or weakness of yours?
It's not listed on my resume, but it is a strength.
And what about sexual misconduct and behavior?
Is the knowledge in that area a strength or weakness of yours?
It's not listed on my resume, but it is a strength.
So let's take a look at your education.
You attended the University of the incarnate word.
Is that correct?
Did I say that right?
Correct.
And you earned a bachelor's degree in 2016?
Correct.
Is this where you would have gained your expertise in ethical decision making?
I would say the beginner knowledge, the beginner state of knowledge of what that would mean surrounding our our skill and our credentialing.
And to what extent was this taught to you?
In other words, was this 1 hour lecture?
Was it a full 3 semester or 3 credit semester course look?
How much time was spent in preparing you in ethical decision making.
Ethical decision making within its own core topic was probably expressed to us or taught to us once a semester during a 1 hour lecture in approximately 2 classes.
So I would say, 2 hours per semester of ethical decision making for about 4 semesters, which is the amount of time it took me to obtain my clinical hours and my degree.
So approximately 8 hours of ethical decision making.
And Correct.
What's the length of the term of this degree?
Was this a 2 year or a 4 year degree?
It's technically classified as a 4 year degree because the university is a 4 year college.
And you must obtain 1800 hours of clinical clinical work.
Plus all 36 hours of your transcript hours, and then there's 2 years prior where you're trying to get into the specific program?
So in 4 years of which included numerous clinical hours, as you described, you received approximately 8 hours of ethical decision making.
Approximately.
And you feel comfortable that that is what helped provide you expertise in a core competency area.
I feel confident that it it taught me a moderate level for what I needed to enter the workforce at the time.
I'd like to ask you the same question about sexual misconduct training.
Can you share with me the amount of time that was spent teaching you this while you're obtaining this degree.
That was probably expressed a little bit more because we were also learning about title 9.
So They tacked on title 9 lectures with sexual harassment and sexual misconduct.
And so I would say approximately 1 more hour included on the 8 hours, per semester or the entire length of the time, but the it would be 3 hours per per semester then.
With that information.
Thank you.
Now we will talk about your work experience shortly with improving that ahead of time and notice that the settings that you're employed and you work most of your career with minors in high schools and middle schools, did any of your formal education of those 4 years includes specific training of working with minors.
Yes.
I would say about half of these scenarios and the education we received focused on scenarios with minors because of the high school population and the junior high population.
And so would you therefore say that you possess expertise in the core competency in working with minors?
Given my experience in the years that I've been practicing, I would say a moderate amount.
Can you explain to me what type of specific training was included in working with minors?
Yes.
We received many many lectures and scenarios on working with football, volleyball, soccer, all different sports across the board as high school and middle school are the traditional other trainer settings.
That is pretty much what we expected to be working in.
And so most of the rehab lectures that we we received, the general med condition lectures that we learned off of.
They specifically surrounded age groups anywhere from twelve years old up until 18.
There were other lectures as I progressed into my my education, such as my senior semester, where they taught us more things about the older population, specifically like 30 to 55.
There was also the middle aged population 18 to 35, 40.
So I would say there was a moderate amount throughout the last semesters of that, but we were always talking about working with minors as that's the traditional setting.
So it was the expectation that they threw on us.
And what would you say are the main differences?
What are the key points that you had to understand to possess such expertise or core confidence in working with minors.
Is that you always had to have a level of vocabulary that you needed to work with them with because they you know, they're minors.
They're in grades.
6, 7, 8, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12.
You are not sure what verbiage they have and because athletic trainers have a large vocabulary of medical vocabulary.
Sometimes the things that we you know, we say or certain terms we use won't always be understood by minors.
So it was always about trying to break down how we speak to them, trying to overexplain things, or having to work with parents and other professionals who when involved in the situation maybe they didn't understand us.
And so we had to learn how to say a lot of layman's terms, work with doctors to explain different situations so that we can translate to the doctor, translate back to the parent and the minor about the injury, or the medical condition that was occurring.
So I would say that pretty much covered a lot of it and as well as, you know, having to keep a level a level headedness about us because we were gonna be dealing with minors who sometimes made us impatient because they just wanted to skip practice or they can understand what was going on.
They were always going to try to get out of practice or go back to practice or go back to play too early because of their injury.
They didn't under standard, and they just wanna get back into the game.
We also had to discuss a fair amount of I would say patient empathy and respect because you're working with people from all types of diverse backgrounds.
So having a lot of, I guess, cultural competency and having that play out on a weekly basis was something that we had to take on.
Thank you.
Alex, do you possess a master's degree?
No.
I do not.
I understand that is it true that approximately 70 to 80 percent of athletic trainers possess a master's degree?
Yes.
And is there a reason why you don't possess a master's degree?
Lack of funds to return back to college.
And so in terms of not possessing a master's degree, would you consider yourself less qualified than the 70 or 80% of individuals that did have the funds that obtained such a degree?
Not always because most of the time, those those persons who returned back to college, they did it right after, so they do not have real world experience.
In the field, they are they have, I would say, monitored experience, and they're still following a certain I guess, buy the book experience where maybe they don't always see the the nature of the injury and they either miss out on things or they don't realize that an injury can behave a certain way such as a concussion or more so like a shoulder injury.
In my in my experience.
So I would say I have a a moderate amount compared to them, a a good amount of real world experience compared to them.
So do you believe that there's a value added for the additional master's degree as an athletic trainer?
I do, but you also have to put that into real world experience.
And most of the ethic trainers that I have worked with even though they do have a master's degree, they still have not seen or experienced some of the real world situations that I've experienced.
So I find that they do ask me for my knowledge and my expertise in the world scenario.
Do you feel like you're either more or less qualified when it comes to ethical decision making as compared to those that have a master's degree.
I would not say more or less.
I would say equal because it's dependent on real real world situation.
And even a master's degree student can base a world real world situation on this type of experiences type of situation, they're still putting their hands on other patients.
And so any one of their patients that they're practicing their expertise on or their skills on.
I want to expertise, but their skills on they could get some type of complianter weird interaction that has occurred to them.
And do you feel like you're more or less qualified in the area of sexual misconduct knowledge as compared to those with the master's degree?
I would not say more or less, I would say about equal because of the same reason.
Although I have I do not have a master's degree.
I do have real world experience, and I have never experienced this before.
A master student can still grades the same thing with their own patient that they're practicing their own master level skill on.
You consider ethical decision making and entry level skill or an advanced skill?
I would say it's definitely in both its entry level and master skill.
But dependent on the situation and the amount of experience and the workload that an athletic trainer takes on a daily basis, it may or may not come to the forefront as much as other things.
And do you consider sexual misconduct an entry level skill to possess with knowledge, or is it an advanced skill?
It's both for the same reasons.
Alexandra, are you familiar that the National Athletic Trainers Association has a code of conduct?
Yes.
Are you a member of the association?
Yes.
Then can you tell me if the code of conduct involves anything related to ethical decision making?
Yes.
It does.
And what does it say?
I'm not sure about the entire actual quote.
But I am aware that it is a core competency of ours and that we must act at all times under the obligation of the ethical statement made by the NADA.
And does the same code contain any language pertaining to sexual misconduct or behavior?
I'm not familiar on the specific verbiage if it does contain those specific words, but it does allocate to the concept of such.
Thank you.
Going back to your resume, we've alluded to a section that you call summary where you listed core competencies of expertise that you possess.
You also have a section that you title key skills.
Now I'll read these to you.
They include injury recognition and management, inventory and budget of supplies, classroom instruction, classroom management, 1st aid in emergency action and planning.
Is ethical decision making a key skill that you possess?
Yes.
Is there any reason why you didn't list it here?
No specific reason.
And what about sexual misconduct?
Is that a case feel that you possess?
Yes.
And is there any reason why you enlisted as a key skill?
No specific reason.
The next time you update your resume, is it possible or likely that you might add these two areas under key skills?
Yes.
Just briefly turning to your experience.
I noticed that from 2017 to 2018, it looks like you were employed with the Livingston ISB.
During your employment in this setting, did you receive any formal training?
In ethical decision making and sexual misconduct and behaviors?
Yes.
And the human resources videos that each employee must watch upon being employed with the school district.
And did these specify the working relationship with minors?
Yes.
Same question from 2018 to 2020 with the path ISD.
Did you also receive any formal training in the area of ethical decision making and sexual con misconduct in behaviors?
Yes.
And did these include specific information related to working with minors?
Yes.
So it's fair to say that you've had multiple formal instruction in the areas of ethical decision making through both your academic preparation and your employment settings?
Yes.
Can you just briefly explain to me why you left each of those positions?
So I had moved away from my hometown to Livingston ISD.
And I spent 1 year there.
I did not agree with the coaching staff, and the athletic director.
I walked into a toxic environment that I was unaware of, and I missed home.
So I figured I learned everything that I needed to learn in that 1st year.
I learned a lot of great lessons, and I decided to move home to be closer to family and to work in what I would possibly call a better environment.
Is it fair to say you had an ethical disagreement?
Yes.
Before we move on and talk specifically about this case, is there anything that you would like to add related to your experience or your credentials or your core competency expertise, key skills, Anything that is not visible to me on your resume that you would like to share with me?
Well, as an athletic trainer with the SHSMOP.
I have been employed in the Sunrise Harbor region for many years now.
We provide service to 25 schools, 15 middle schools, 10 high schools, and we employ 50 athletic trainers.
In my 8 year experience with this area, this region.
I've contributed many things to sports medicine and athlete care, and I have been recognized by the region as an exemplary employee.
And prior to this, there have been no previous complaints or reports of minus conduct in had a very good relationship with everyone, all of my employers listed on my resume, and not sure I'm not sure how I will write this on my resume.
Probably as you mentioned, but I'm not sure what to where to go from here.
Alexandra, do you know who John B is?
Yes.
Can you hear explaining to me the capacity of your relationship with John B?
Yes.
He is an athlete.
With the Sunrise Harbor area within Long Creek Middle School.
Did you know how old he is?
He's a thirteen year old.
Did you ever treat him for an injury?
Yes.
He had a proximal hamstring injury.
Can you explain to me exactly what that is?
Yes.
A proximal hamstring injury occurs when an athlete suddenly loads too much on their bodies, such as increasing their activity too much, such as sprinting, adding, jumping into their regimen, or adding sprinting to the regimen too quickly.
Their bodies have not gone through progressive loading training, and strengthening training.
And most of the time, the muscles and the tendons that are located in the hamstring tend to give way to injury rather than to strength gains or flexibility gains.
And to just help me visualize this, whereabouts is this injury located on the body?
He has a proximal hamstring injury, meaning that the top of the hamstring, you know, the bottom of the glute is where most of the injury and the pain has occurred.
Do you recall was this his left or right side?
It was his right side.
And were you the individual who treated him?
Originally, it was a coach who had checked on him.
And brought him in sometime after the injury occurred.
He brought him into the training room.
And you performed an evaluation of this injury?
Yes.
And this was in your capacity as an athletic trainer?
Yes.
Alexandria in performing the evaluation on John B's hamstring.
Did you obtain parental consent?
At the time, not in the moment of asking, but as per athletic conduct and code, of the Loma Creek Middle School District And High School And Middle School at their athletes sign, and the parents sign a contract.
It's like a athlete handbook.
And in that in their states that during the time of an emergency situation where an athlete sustains an injury.
They have given permission for any health care professional on campus, specifically a nurse or an athletic trainer to attend to that injury.
So permission was implied through and given through the contract signed at the beginning of the school year.
But at that moment, when it happened, I did not because parents were not wound and it was out of practice.
Is a proximal hamstring injury considered an emergency?
To the athlete at the moment, yes, because he is experiencing the high level of pain.
And upon evaluation, he was experiencing an 8 out of 10 pain.
So, yes, it was an emergency.
So in your opinion no.
I'm not asking about the athlete, but in your opinion, wasn't an emergency.
I'd say a low level emergency.
An emergency to me is CPR, first aid, someone has passed out, someone is facing a life or death situation, but it was classified as a injury management.
Situation, and in that moment, I had to respond as a 1st aid person.
Alexandra, have you ever treated proximal hamstring injuries before in minors?
Yes.
And in any of those situations, have any of those individuals passed out on you?
No.
And in any of those situations, have you ever performed CPR or First Aid?
Once, but the athlete also sustained a cut at the time because they fell So only one situation where someone was bleeding, but in all other cases now.
Alexandra, are you allowed to, as an athletic trainer, in the state of Texas, work independently under the certification that you possess or the state license that you possess?
We have the ability to, but we must let our our employers know for the days such as contract employers or as under a contract employee if you are with a contracting company such as through a hospital.
And who is your supervisor that you report to administratively?
Administratively, it would be the athletic director of Loma Creek Middle School.
And who is the supervisor that you report to clinically?
It is one of the athletic trainer managers at the hospital that provides the services to Loma Creek Middle School.
Do you report to any physician?
Yes.
And and how is that relationship established?
That relationship is established either through the hospital that we are contracting under for Loma Creek Middle School or it is through an individual physician provided to us through communication of the parent.
If they chose to take their child somewhere else.
And you have a formal written agreement established with that physician?
That physician would have an agreement personally between the patient but the patient would also include the parent of the minor.
And as in my experience, if a parent does not feel comfortable with their child going to the appointed physicians through the hospital that is contracted with Loma Creek, middle school.
They may go to their own physician, and I am technically I am technically obligated to do as a patient wishes and work with the providing physician through the parent.
Alexandra, in either your assessment of this proximal hamstring injury or any subsequent treatment that you provided during rehabilitation.
Was any of John B's body exposed?
Just his hamstrings.
And his from hamstrings down to the ankles because he had his socks on, those were the only body parts exposed.
And is that acceptable and appropriate intervention from your training?
Yes.
Because an athlete is most likely wearing athletic clothes, and the uniform for the team that he is on is athletic shorts and athletic cert.
And did you need to touch the skin anywhere in this area?
Briefly.
And was there anyone else who observed or witnessed your evaluation or your assessment of John B?
The coach who brought him in.
So the coach was present for the evaluation?
Yes.
And was the coach present for every subsequent treatment that you provided?
Just a general check-in about a week after, but other than that now.
So on the subsequent treatments, there were one on one just you and the athlete?
They were not The interaction was one on one, meaning I was in a patient interaction with him, but we have a very busy training room.
So there were other students coming in and out, grabbing various things such as tape, ice, a bottle of water and then walking back out?
So you were treating John B, partially exposed in an open area where there were numerous other people?
He was not exposed in a way that is very, very exposing to, like, his, like, reproductive parts or his glutes, just the musculature of the hamstring.
And the other hand the other leg the other hamstring was already exposed because he's wearing shorts.
So they can see all of his legs.
And all these other individuals that were in this busy training room, as do you describe it, Are you responsible for those individuals as well?
Yes.
Other student athletes.
Yes.
So can can you say that you were focused on John B's intervention while you're also responsible for this many people in this busy training room as you put it?
Yes.
Because not many people are approaching me during this interaction with him.
And most of everyone else's either sitting on that treatment table waiting to be seen or they're walking in and out.
I have one other question too.
I understand during one of these treatments, it was late in the day, And you actually provided a ride home for John B because he didn't have one.
Is that accurate?
Yes.
That's accurate.
And is that acceptable standard protocol for you as an athletic trainer to drive a minor home?
It typically is not, but through lack of communication on his part with whoever was providing the ride originally with him and through the general likeness of the practice in the day, it ended up being that I had to take him home.
Because there was no other way for him to get home, and he has a minor.
And so did you contact the parents ahead of time to seek permission to drive John B.
He was thirteen years old home.
He did.
He called his parents, but he did not get anyone to pick up the phone.
K.
And was there anyone else in the vehicle during this drive home?
Nope.
Approximately how long was that drive?
He lives very close to school, so I would say it was approximately a 7 to 8 minute drive.
Thank you.
And for the sake of time, I have no further questions.
Is there anything you'd like to add?
No.
Thank you.
Doctor Castle, I have about 20 pages more of questions, but for the same time and for people who say, well, you didn't ask this, there's a possibility.
That's why.
But, anyways, I think we covered enough, and we haven't Yeah.
I think have me sweating over here, man.
You have me sweating.
I was like, oh my god.
I just did the wrong thing.
I just look guilty.
So so I will tell you this.
I have I you're I'm listening.
I probably have about 30 questions or at least things that you were you mentioned in the session.
But before we get started, I know there's I've already got one question that wants to go on audio.
So from Alexandra, what is your initial like, after going through this, what is what What are you what's your emotions like, I guess?
That's the question I would have.
Oh, man.
Like, I feel like I'm like I'm like thinking back to, like, every direction.
I've ever had now, and I feel like I'm in the hot sea.
Like, oh, I got a sweat over here.
I definitely like, they they teach you in school, you know, ethical stuff and sexual harassment, but it's like a 1 hour lecture because there's just so many things to go over in our and and I
told them that was 6 months.
It was I mean, 1st semester for a whole year.
You know?
But, you know, it's You you think about that, and they don't really give you a lot of scenarios.
They give you, like, the state laws.
They go over an ATA stuff.
They They tell, you know, ethical decision making is always in our head.
It it is a everyday thing, but I would say, you know, I mean, it it's not as at the forefront as in this situation as it is in many other things.
I mean, ethically, you can do, like, should I little Johnny b out for a hamstring tear for 3 weeks versus 5 weeks versus 6 weeks.
And that's ethical, you know, that's ethical decision making.
It's giving him more time to rehab.
And, you know, let's let's take you back one more day because you have a headache, you know, when you went back to day 4 of you know, concussion protocol and you're taking a hit.
You know, that's ethical decision making, and that's super easy.
But, you know, sexual harassment cases, you know, anything can be misconstrued.
So I'm just thinking, oh my god.
I just I just made myself, like, guilty, and I'm rambling.
I'm nervous.
What am I gonna say?
But it definitely got me thinking of a couple of things that I probably need to review.
Specifically, like, what does an ATA bylaws say, like, can I quote it, you know, and by saying by saying things eloquently, you know, things like that?
Well, let's let's get to the couple I know I have a couple of questions.
One of I I do wanna ask about that was kinda hitting on a while ago is what are the formal education, one of the institution's responsibility towards that, you know, that looks we'll go that in a minute.
First off, let me get Brad on I can get this score.
Right?
Thankfully, Joanne, that's Brad?
Hang on.
Looks like let me let me front him and Okay, Brad.
You're you're ready to go.
You can turn your audio on.
Okay.
Is it on?
Yes.
It is.
Good morning.
Hey, Ray.
Jeff, Alexandra.
Thank you for all of this.
But my my question, Jeff, is going back to your questioning of her degrees.
And her not having a master's degree.
And now that we are an entry level master's profession.
Now where is that questioning going to lead or things like that?
To those who do not have a master's degree?
Mhmm.
Yeah.
That's a great question, Brad.
So in my personal opinion, It just depends on how good the expert is working with the attorney.
The attorneys typically don't have this depth of knowledge of our differences in curriculum as we transfer to the masters.
But if I were advising attorney, I would point out things that are formally taught now in the curriculum that weren't in that bachelor's degree.
And we would go down a whole line of questioning, hopefully, to say, if you believe as Alexandra told us, I'm equally as qualified as these individuals, then we would say, well, were you trained in this?
Were you trained tonight?
And if she says yes, then we would pull out the comparison and say here's, you know, exhibit a.
I don't see it in here.
Can you show me where you learned this in your program?
And so you you raise a great point.
I don't know that that will ever decide a case, if you will, but the whole purpose of the line of questioning as you saw I mean, Alexandra has a one page resume that I spent intentionally 35 minutes on, even though I had 45 minutes for the case.
But we didn't really have a real case.
We had a couple of bullet points for it, but we had a full resume.
And I think a big part of that is for me to go down, and this has happened to me, Brad, where Lawyers have gone through my couple dozen page resume, line for line, and say, well, where's your expertise in this?
Did it come from here?
You wrote an article on documentation.
Did you have expertise in it with there?
And they know the answers.
But what they're trying to do is sort of discredit you or rattle you.
Now I will say Sandra's composure was fantastic.
I don't think her I think she was a little long winded on many of her answers.
It's one of the things you'd be coaching with your own lawyers is just answer short and sweet and and then stop.
And intentionally, didn't do it here for the sake of time, but attack the debt lawyers will typically use in deposition.
It's just say nothing, and it it baits you to keep talking more and just rambling on.
And you said it a couple Yes.
On.
Don't answer anything more than you have to.
Now sometimes your own attorneys, they'll they'll be president of the deposition, and they'll jet, and they'll and they'll object just to stop you from talking, quite frankly.
But you raised a great point, Brad, and I think that's where individuals today that are bachelor's trained at their highest level in athletic training probably just need to take a look and saying, you know, what areas was I deficient in that now we learn that are in the curriculum?
And that's that's with every athlete trainer anyways.
There's many of us who have master's degrees still don't work firmly taught some of the things in the new competencies.
So I think that just as an individual responsibility, It may not necessarily be degree based, but, you know, I don't even know whether any people still are practicing that were complete internship routes BS as well where there's no evidence of, you know, what they were formally taught quite frankly.
But that's a great question to ask, and it goes back to an individual's responsibility of just being adequately prepared for being an athletic trainer.
Am I still on?
Yes, sir.
So
because the other thing that I'm thinking is, okay, well, lots of the master's degrees that the athletic trainers have are not related at all to athletic trainee.
So Correct.
A lot of that would have never come into their trainee.
That's right.
And if Alexandra had a master's degree out here, that would have been the other line of questioning that I'd have gone down is, okay, that's great.
You have an athlete or you have a degree of exercise, kinesiology, nutrition, or whatever, where in those areas did you learn about ethical decision making and sexual misconduct as an athletic trainer and what we would basically get her to do is she didn't want.
Never do this again, by the way.
She she said that I didn't get the extra education because the funding I I couldn't afford to do my job the right way.
It's basically that message to me.
So after
you go down that same road there,
It's true.
I was looking at a master's program.
I was like, this is too much money.
Let me, like, go get a better job or something.
There is We apply all these colors.
There's a lot of things that you'll typically answer in deposition that are very true.
Unfortunately, you gotta come up with a different way to say You basically told me that I wasn't gonna pay for the knowledge that I should have had, and there therefore, I am here right now.
I would have just added.
I do my CEUs.
I got all those things done.
Great questions, Brad.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I got a great point to add to or at least the concept of this where where Brad adds on to is you're looking at my education and training, and that typically education and the education side is gonna be about 4 to 5 years ahead of the credentialing, you know, for the BOC requirements December, you see that change over in the gap.
So you're looking at what the standards of the practice analysis.
Now we're in the middle of between 7 and 8.
Those are changes at the VLC at the VLC level, but I thought you had a really great question that looked you were at one of the first questions you asked Alexandra was well, what's I think, understood, if I recall this correctly, is what's more important?
The ATC credential or the license credential And, you know, and before I I don't wanna dismiss one of Andrea's Andre had a question of, you know, I think you you answered this already.
It's on the Judging judging the succinctness of her answers.
Not true.
Yeah.
And I probably could've got to a lot more of my questions that she not been so long.
Wounded out her answers.
I'm so sorry.
No.
But that was good for people to witness and see because You were just talking and talking.
It got to the point where a lot of those answers were completely irrelevant to the actual question I was asking.
And so what happens when you do that is you start to volunteer information that gives me a lot of questioning that I didn't have written down in my notes that I wanted to start to pursue.
I noticed I think you did that on I forget which one it was, but I was like, you probably didn't have that written.
Yeah.
And and the goal in what the attorneys are gonna do is try to make you feel as comfortable as possible with them sitting down so that you're just get lost in that, and you're not nervous anymore.
You start talking.
And
Oh, I was talking good.
Because I was nervous.
I didn't know when to shut up.
I was thinking wrap this point up, Alex.
Yeah.
Now and that was the first question.
One of the first questions I have on my notes is like that.
What holds were weight, it made you start to thinking, at least I saw that thought process and you paused.
And you started just going a little bit more in there within then I thought was interesting through your line of your approach, Jeff.
And I know it's probably and everybody has different approaches to this or you would see this, was that you asked very suddenly about competencies, listing the competencies, and then it was and if you had just alluded this, Doctor Conan is, what's the importance of asking, hey, would you do you think now you may add this to your resume?
This like, if you were just gonna talk about because I thought that was you hit on that about 5 different times, at least 5 times.
Yeah.
But different areas of the the key key skills, the competencies, etcetera, just thought was just I'm like, wow.
That just was a I don't know what that meant, but or at least I I had asked I can it does, but what it looked like.
What what it what it meant was, I was trying to confuse her intentionally, and And if you are gonna tell me that you have expertise in these areas and you've been taught it so many times, then you saw I I was able to squeeze that last question question at the end.
Well, if you're so ethical and you understand all this, well, then how come you don't have parental consent with a minor?
How come you drove a kid home that you just told me is against the rules to do so?
So the idea was to create a conflict.
And then with her saying, oh, yeah.
Better at these things.
Now she's admitting that she's erroneous in what she's presenting on her resume per say.
And the other thing was there's a there was a typo on her resume.
It was only one, but I would have probably, if I had more time, gone down that road and just basically say so, is it possible that you've got errors on your resume, that you can make errors in your ethical decision making too.
And and she has to answer yes She can't say no.
It's not possible.
She has to say yes.
Of course, it's possible.
So I'm get I'm trying to get her down that road.
Whether she was wrong or not in the actual case, It's to demonstrate that perception that all of a sudden, like she told you, I'm starting to question myself, and that's the road that attorneys trying to get you down to.
Well, you got me there.
Well, please.
So we were to spend a ton more time on the the treatment intervention, see this sculpture, the positioning of the patient.
And then quite frankly, if you just kept telling me, no.
They were exposed properly.
I said, well, how are you Is it is did you learn this in school to treat the person through their clothes?
So now you're doing inappropriate treatments and things like that.
So we whatever you've said,
Yeah.
There's a line of questioning that's gonna
have it.
That's your question.
Yeah.
Could could you ask that?
And I'm thinking, okay.
Well, some of the middle school, I've seen it, you know, in real world experience that they've had those those long shorts that they go down to the knee.
And then in recent times, they've started to give the kids shorter clothing because of whatever reason, because that's it's the budget or it looks stylish.
I don't know.
Or maybe the kids asked for it.
It's whatever.
But I was thinking I'm like, okay.
Well, how am I gonna say that he was properly exposed?
I mean, he's properly exposed, but as other trainers know, like, that hamstring is right there in the glue.
And so when you're when you're guiding to my own expense, when you're palpating, I always ask.
I I tell them, hey.
This is the Musculature.
This is where it's at.
I need to put my hand close to your your glute so that I can feel if there if it's tendon or if it's muscle, if it's that weird gray area, And they're always like, okay.
You know, or or I'll show it on my phone.
You know?
I'm like, this is what it's going.
You know, this is where the muscle is.
This is my thing.
And those are the types of
features that something.
We would keep asking you that.
Give it tell us the directions that you gave them so and so forth.
Yes.
I was thinking that's where you're gonna lead it.
So I was trying to think of,
like We just wanna talk.
Doctor Velasquez, that's a really good question.
So I wanna answer these.
You said most HR departments have annual training modules on sexual harassment and other items.
I don't think this makes you an expert.
How should she have answered?
Excellent question.
And I
had a whole lot of questioning on that was gonna take her through every single setting she was in much more detail.
I wanna know the dates you took these training I wanna see evidence.
Do you have something to show me in writing like a certificate, which I'll just interrupt my own self here, my answer, but all of you that are out there, they're sick and tired of doing these annual trainings.
This is the reason you do it, and you save that certificate so you can answer those questions very objectively.
Yes.
I was trained in June of 2020 at this school, and I have certificate to show us.
Because if you can't tell me when, I'm gonna keep asking you a question because I know most people don't remember when they did the training.
And I'm gonna say, well, is it fair to say that you don't remember when it was, how do you remember what was taught?
I'm just gonna, again, keep going down that road.
So if you can say, no.
I was trained in June of 2020, I received a certificate forward.
I do the training annually.
I have a certificate in terms of doing that.
I'm less likely to go down that roller per se.
And would would it be okay to, like, answer that and just say, you know, I mean, I know, like, the simple the simple answer would be, like, yes or no, or I have taken it.
But would it be okay to offer that information, or is it more like a total profit?
You you can always say I'm happy to provide the documentation.
But ultimately, you wanna be as prepared as you can ahead of time because you you're gonna have documents in front of you to prepare for the deposition.
And anything that you have there is is evidence.
And so both sides of the of the groups can have of the the case can have these in front of them already.
So they're already gonna have that.
They're less likely to press you on those when they see you've got formal training for, you know, 10 years of getting practice.
Brett, as another question, would not having the BOC credential weigh in?
In in other words, if she was just Texas, licensed?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And and one of the one of the roads I was going down again, we we ran out of time, but as, hopefully, you all saw this she did not answer the question about standing orders with a physician.
She said her supervisors were x, y, and z, and I was bathing her, and I kept giving her another chance to say, please tell me that you have a written agreement.
Now that's where the BOC comes in, by the way.
Don't let anyone tell you in any state.
That you don't need this.
If your BOC, go read your BOC credentials that you repeat that you keep accurate and and active, it says that you must work under the direction of physicians.
Right?
So that's what you wanna refer to.
If you said, well, my state law doesn't require your BOC will, and it's in writing there.
And if you log this, that's a whole other level.
So that's where that piece comes in.
And she said, yes.
I am also a t c.
Right?
So I need to have that in there.
So she didn't give me any information.
She told me the relationship was between the physician and the parents of which she didn't talk to the parents.
She didn't have consent from the parents.
And there was a whole lot of loopholes here.
To go down before we even got to the part of the harassment piece itself.
Follow-up to it's okay, Ray.
If I just keep bringing these out loud, Yeah.
Yes.
Please do.
Please do.
Go right ahead.
That's this is great.
I was gonna I was gonna ask them anyway.
So
Well, I want to Brad's question.
Would it matter if they are l a t only?
That's I think that's what I was just addressing there.
You can be licensed.
Yes.
That's true.
Now to be honest with you, in preparation for this, we had enough information, so I didn't go ahead and pull up.
Texas loss sold versus the ATC, the BOC.
But, yeah, we would have dug into that and found out differences between that.
In fact, I would have asked her to tell me those differences to again show that she probably doesn't know the detail of what's in the state law, which is another area that she'll show that, oh my god.
I don't possess this knowledge off top of my head.
I don't even know what's my own license law or or my own Texas.
I put a training law.
She should have drank the treatment.
Yes.
That was a whole other area questioning then that we didn't get down to was.
So I I would have asked her tell me exactly what interventions she used.
K?
Now she just told me that the area of treatment was covered.
It wasn't even exposed.
So if she said massage or ultrasound or anything like that, I'm saying you did have to close, how would you do it?
So now you've got inappropriate treatment arrangement.
Or the other way it was, yeah, I did it, but I moved the the tights up at that point in time.
And then we talked about appropriate drinking and techniques and informed consent for each individual treatment.
A lot of things like that.
So for the sick for the sake of time, we didn't get down those roads.
But, again, every answer she gave would have just opened up another set of questions to pry into that particular detail.
Even the drive home, however short it was.
You know, who was sitting where?
What did you talk about?
We would have just keep asking questions to to get her to respond to it.
And then by the way, This is one deposition.
So then let's say we take John B, and we depose him.
And he said, oh, well, the car ride was 20 minutes, but she told me tech.
And he says something different she talked about.
Now you're starting to really raise even more questions to the character of the defense.
Yep.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Very a lot of it just goes on.
It can potentially go on and on and on.
And I guess the one that is not not knowing.
Now I like to work for August.
Doctor Cohen, if he's gonna elaborate on I think he's part of this already, but We talked about I'll go back to one of the things of ours confidence level.
And I know, Alexander, you asked his questions as well as what is the elaborate on the responsibility.
It's a I know there's a dual responsibility that when you sign off on something, you're you're a testing that you have received information, your knowledge, and it goes back to make sure you have evidence.
Keep keep track of that evidence.
But, like, for example, the employer or the from an education standpoint, demonstrating confidence, there I know there have been some cases in medical schools where this has come into question whether they the program document allowed a student to go through a program and they were not they were not competent, but allowed to move them through.
This is somewhat of a, you know, the sexual harassment.
It's kind of a nebulous area.
Because how do you demonstrate your you asked those questions.
And then, Alexander, you were asking you were answering those questions.
This is how I did this.
But how do you but at the end of the day, that would go back on to even the employer.
They've signed off from something.
They've done something.
Doesn't mean it doesn't mean they met x, y, z.
They just had the minimal confidence.
What they deemed is appropriate.
If you could elaborate a little bit on that from a from a practitioner and having been on the, you know, the academic side as well.
Yeah.
So the more documentation they have that shows you were formally trained in those areas, the better you are to defend yourself.
But then you have to ask the question, well, then why did this happen?
And then you have to explain, well, in your view, that's how it happened.
In my view, it happened verbally, and and that's because of all this training that I had.
Mean, it started when I was in school.
I would agree with some of the comments already that I've seen in the chat box that being trained as a undergrad or master's training does not give you pertise in that, it gives you the minimal level of confidence to be certified when you pass your exam.
There may not have even been single question on that exam pertaining to this particular case, and you probably won't even remember if there was or there wasn't.
So then you have to continue to document that As Alexandria did articulate very well, in my clinical practice, I gained experience in this.
I was trained every year.
So the more you can show up, the better.
And what happens is is the next phase.
I wanna think there's 2 important things to mention here.
One is it's not uncommon to leave a deposition.
Question everything you've ever done in your life and go back to work that day and question Am I gonna touch somebody?
Am I gonna talk to him?
And, like, you you do wanna reflect on that, and you do wanna think about some things that you could do better.
We all do that.
But you you can't lose your confidence.
You still have to go back and treat people.
Now you're more vulnerable to making mistakes.
In fact, if this stays on your mind, so one of the most important things that I think is completely left out in the training for athletic training.
No one's trained in doing depositions.
That's for sure.
And as I said, the more you do, I mean, you might get a little better, but there's still this is like a game game.
Like, you still have nervous when you go into the depositions even as an expert, Clay Frank.
But But then when you leave it, how do you just keep your composure and go do your job that you have to literally go right to?
And so that's one important thing.
You need, you know, a support group around you, talk to, but you have to keep in mind, you're gonna be asked those questions too.
Like, I I could have asked you a line of questions.
That said, in preparation for this, can you tell me all the people you spoke with about this case and exactly will go down the line of each person?
What did you talk about with this case in that?
And by the way, if you took a break for an hour for 10 minutes and came back, I'll do the same thing.
Alexandra, can you tell me if you spoke to anyone during a 10 minute break?
And what did you speak about.
And this happens because usually, you probably speak to your attorney.
They'll coach you to tell you some things.
And you're in growth when you come back.
So it's it's a very delicate line.
But understanding that, you're still good.
Hopefully, like, I mean, some people are truly really negligent in what they did.
And you change your behaviors afterwards, but you're still good in that case.
The second part of that is, basically, when you answer in a solid way, and there aren't loopholes, that's when the cases are gonna lean towards getting settled because lawyers don't wanna take the trial, because they may not believe that they can win the case.
And so what they'll try to do is say, okay.
You know what?
I'll tell you what.
We're gonna we'll offer you this and settle it if you pay that because It may still seem like you might say, well, I didn't do anything wrong.
Why would you settle and give them a $100,000?
And the lawyers have to explain to you.
Okay.
First of all, The insurance company that you have for liability insurance is probably a decision maker in this too, and they don't wanna drag this out and keep paying the attorneys anymore.
And the school district has insurance that you work and so on and so forth.
They just want this to go away.
And then when it's settled, it's sealed, which means no one talks about he's allowed to talk about by law.
Much did it settle for?
What are the terms of the settlement?
Things like that.
It goes away.
And sometimes that's a price worth paying versus dragging this out for a longer time frame.
You know, I I think you all brought up a good point of, like, you look at this level of you you asked a lot of questions about confidence and what that level is.
And then you just a little while ago, you started bringing in the confidence level and what that looks like.
And I I was doing a presentation this past this past week, and it's on a MercyCare skills.
It's not the same thing as this topic, but they I alluded to the fact that we're if you're building, you know, you have a protocol, you have competence, you document competence, but you don't wanna perform something when you're lack of when you have a lack of confidence in performing a skill that you're confident because, therefore, you're you're you alluded earlier about the modality not doing the right intervention, appropriate intervention versus your confident, but you have no confidence.
And that's or being cavalier in that.
And I think that's a I think but related to ethical decision making.
Alexander, you brought you brought this in the scenario that you're or one of the questions was, well, I left a you asked another question.
You left you brought this in the scenario, but I thought it was a really excellent point of being your you you made you didn't get into it, but your ethical decision making, you felt you know, you're you're confident, but you're I mean, confident, but you're you're made that ethical decision to move out of that point.
In my point, I think it's it's important that anyone anywhere you're watching this is if you don't have the tools and equipment, especially with this, if they're not providing you this as an employer, Then I heard this one time from a well known colleague of ours said that, you know, they don't give the tools to be successful.
They're they're sending you up for a lawsuit.
And they're not really con they're you know, you're the one being hung out to the drop.
So I felt I just wanted to allude to that.
Oh, so Ray, think about this, though.
When she said, if you're thinking, well, she did the right thing by saying it was an unethical environment, so I left.
So then my line of questioning would have been So whoever it was that you had this conflict with may unethical decisions, and they say, yeah.
I said, well, did you report this person?
So is your normal behavior when you see something on ethical to run and not do now and then I would ask you about the child reporting mandate loss?
Are you familiar with these?
And do you realize that your behavior could have been reported by others?
Had they known you put this thirteen year old in your vehicle when driving.
Was that ethical or not?
What she already said really probably she didn't say exactly you know what wasn't right, but kinda she alluded to that.
I shouldn't have done that.
Yep.
But then it didn't even get to the communication side.
You know, the text the you didn't even get into the text communications or other phone I mean, there's a whole echo going there.
I'm just gonna go on this could have been a 4 hour deposition a month, because I know that you would have really enjoyed Alexandra.
I know all of us are like, he he texted a little little Jason.
Jason was like, I don't have order burger too bad, took a or something or, you know, just you know, I was like, man, how am I gonna get this this game to realize I had no choice.
Yeah.
The interpretation of the what what's somebody interpreting?
That's also the interpretive messaging as well that, you know, you put on the board in the in your facility.
It may be it may be construed you know, inappropriately and not you not even realize that.
I think we've probably got time for one last question or we if you're is you wanna read that or you want me to Yeah.
Talk to him.
So so Ben mentions the fact that the institutions who you work for will have their own attorneys.
Of course, they'll have them on retainer, so they represent them.
And, you know, I I personally recommend everyone have their own a liability insurance because those attorneys, quite frankly, can't turn on you at a dime and say, hey.
Well, we didn't train you to do it this way.
So what you we have a handbook right here is that you can't drive minors.
So if you did that, that's not on us.
We're not defending you anymore.
You're on your own.
Now my good friend, Rod Walters, I don't know if he's on here, but Rod has said to us that sometimes it became backfire when you have your own professional liability insurance, that's one of the things the attorneys look at because now I realize, oh, you have a policy for 1,000,000.
Well, we're definitely gonna, you know, name you in the lawsuit because that's what we're gonna find in money.
If you don't have liability insurance, we go sue you.
We're not getting anything out of this little athletic trainer salary in in bank account.
So I still think it's better to have versus not.
And then also think about this just for everyone's purpose.
Moving forward, When Alexandra re ups her her BOC, she has to answer questions now.
Have you ever been named in a lawsuit?
Same thing with professional liability insurance.
Now it may have settled.
You may have been completely found not negligent.
It doesn't make a difference.
You still have to answer the question now.
Yes.
And it'll just basically undergo some kind of review.
Maybe your rates go up now.
Not for BOC, but maybe for, you know, your liability insurance.
But but it's a whole different thing.
If you have a state licensure and you go to reapply for that, you have to answer the question, Have you ever been sued?
And so you just have an additional headache series of headaches now because of what you went through.
So it's almost like you're never fully relieved of this.
And it haunts you moving forward.
That's why I say you really have to put yourself in the right frame of mind.
And I'll put a disclaimer out here, Ray.
For a self plug because Greg Gardner and Nicole Wilkins and myself are putting on a new textbook that is about legal issues and athletic training.
And one of the carriers that we're writing about is gonna address this.
You know, what do you do after you're named in a lawsuit?
What do you do first?
Who do you call?
Who do you talk to?
Who do you not talk to?
And all the way through that process, you know, after you go through it, what do you do?
Because it's traumatic.
It's emotionally traumatic.
It it really I truly believe it changes people's mindset when they go to their job.
They're really nervous.
They're really you know, sort of very conservative on how they treat people and they change things, but they should unless for the better because they realized things were uncovered, they could have done better.
And we should all be doing that anyway.
So as we self evaluate our practice.
Yeah.
I think it's an excellent point that I I like to refer to it.
Like, you look at a traumatic event.
Or incidents, you need to know who's on your offense.
You know?
Who is your center?
Your I mean, I use that that use it visual, but You didn't know who you're gonna hand the ball off to, and who's gonna walk to, and they're gonna do a really good job there every time.
And that's and that requires, you know, that what you just said is having a good team that's with you, but also making those are decisions.
You also make beforehand as well.
And 1 may not be listed in the social media.
And, of course, social media, they're they're going to you know, it's social media, social media with anybody who says something.
But Yes.
I I think you hit it right on the head.
It's just, you know, having support you need to have the right support and but I know the no tools you have there beforehand because it is a true it could be for that.
Both personally, both professionally, and, you know, potentially financially as well.
So Any last Alexandra, any last words of advice you wanna get after after being done.
Hypothetically deposed?
Man, probably
know what you're gonna say before, you know, just reread all of, like, the little, you know, reread your bylaws, make sure that you are practicing in a very ethical manner.
And even though, you know, ethical decision making isn't on your resume now, it doesn't it doesn't hurt to put it on there later.
Because it's definitely definitely at the forefront, but probably not as much in all their situations as much as this one.
But Yeah, guys.
Just read it bylaws, pay your dues, look at your training again.
Get better in things you know your weekend.
Right?
Yes.
Yes.
Honestly.
Yes.
And that was a good question.
You were like, is that mean your weakness or, like, does that mean you have no weaknesses?
And I was like, god, dang it.
God, dang it.
Doctor Cohen, any last comments you wanna share with the audience before we sign off?
Yeah.
The last message in the chat box is from Chad Fredericks.
He basically says, they'll marry a lawyer if I interpret that perfectly.
And he's a lot more for more students.
So So
No.
I I only I only commend Alexander.
Great job being brave to do this.
Good learning tool.
And then for everyone listening, really just hopefully you're able to take home a couple of points.
Honestly, not even about how to do a deposition, but how to be prepared through the things you do every day if you get to that point so that you are more comfortable, more confident sitting in that oxy.
Right?
Yes.
Alexandra, Doctor Doctor Conan.
Thank you again.
This was a fantastic session for a I'm I'm looking forward to watching this again and as well.
So to the audience, also Just know that we're gonna be converting this over to an on demand content.
And with that, thank you for attending this today's session.
And if you have any other topics in the future that you would like us to hear, like, on this topic in terms of the deposition, then message us.
We're wanna hear from you and how we can improve helping you be safe out there as a provider and protecting athletes and patients.
Have a great day.
Next Witness Please 2.0: Sexual Harassment of a Middle School Athlete MOCK DEPOSITION
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Updated Jan 22, 2024
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